AllBASIC Forum

BASIC Developer & Support Resources => Open Forum => Topic started by: John on September 20, 2018, 05:24:58 PM

Title: BASIC
Post by: John on September 20, 2018, 05:24:58 PM
I'm amazed the BP.org forum group believes creating a language is as easy as solving a crossword puzzle. But what do I know, I'm just an open source project maintainer. I think QBasic is a more difficult BASIC to learn than Script BASIC. SB is a tradition BASIC syntax embeddable scripting engine in a < 500KB footprint.

My interests aren't being a hobby programmer. I do this for a living. My hobby (free time) is spent contributing to and facilitating meaningful open source projects.

For those that can't see beyond the end of their nose, Script BASIC console mnemonics are provided with the CIO extension module. See the cio_color demo that comes with the Windows Install.

A plus for Script BASIC is if the functionality you need isn't part of the language, you can add it seamlessly with an extension module.

@Tomaaz - While I'm solving my needs with a few lines of Script BASIC code, you're off being serious with some bloated rats nest of a scripting language.

You asked Peter (BaCon author) what he thought of Script BASIC. He is a good person to ask as is Charles and Mike. Peter is a very bright programmer that wrote a few extension modules for the language. The BaCon syntax is an extension of Script BASIC and at the time he was using it, he was a big fan.

Peter's gtkserver extension module is still one of my favorites. A high level UI and FFI API that was the motivation for DLLC on Windows. Peter also wrote the original Online Dictionary program which I use as my GUI Hello World standard on multiple OS environments.

Peter Verhas once said that if he would have known Python was going to be so popular, he would have never put the effort he did into Script BASIC.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on September 21, 2018, 09:50:11 AM
It depends on the crossword.  :o
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 21, 2018, 03:24:27 PM
Quote from: Aurel@RetroB
Script Basic primary thing is as far as i know server-side scripting is it?
so as such this language is not for most hobby -enthusiast etc programmers
and also primary target is Linux.

Script BASIC is primarily used for its embedding ability. Linux is where my primary interests reside. I still have clients married to Windows so I continue to support the platform.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on September 22, 2018, 02:06:32 AM
Right now I am rather chained to Windows - my mineral collection database is on Access and my documents are all in Word & Excel.

I do rather want to migrate to a cross-platform environment and away from Access. Barring a few forms with large amounts of automation in them, my Word and Excel files can all be handles in Open Office or the likes.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 22, 2018, 08:42:46 AM
Peter,

Thanks for your feedback on RetroB. A few comments.


I have 13 years invested in the project. Peter Verhas moved on to become a Java expert. He has already written a few books on the topic.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 22, 2018, 08:56:34 AM
Quote
Right now I am rather chained to Windows

Have you tried using the Script BASIC COM extension module with MS Office?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on September 22, 2018, 11:53:43 AM
Guys,

I really don't want to take part in that counter-productive BASIC vs. ASIC discussion either here or on retrogamecoding dot org. I'm sick and tired of the participating characters that keep on repeating their hollow reasons in favor of Dartmouth all over again year in year out, and interspersing them with blatant demagogy at that.

My standpoint is firm and steady: in the year of 2018,This is all I have to say regarding the topic, and as I have already said, I will abstain from any further fruitless discussions on it here or elsewhere.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 22, 2018, 02:51:39 PM
Thanks Mike for your comments and advice.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 22, 2018, 03:08:15 PM
@Tomaaz,

Quote
I wish John didn't quit (I really struggle to find reason for it), but he's gone, so does it really matter what we're posting in this topic?

I left the forum because everyone insisted I become a hobby programmer and make an embeddable commercial grade scripting engine beginner friendly.

I rather use my free time supporting open source projects I like.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 22, 2018, 08:08:13 PM
Quote
If anyone did any insisting, it was John insisting we all love his tool.

Does B+ stand for Bitterness Plus?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on September 23, 2018, 03:34:19 AM
No, in my perception it stands for Beginner Plus, which in its turn evidently stands for Beginner Eternal. :)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 23, 2018, 07:57:30 AM
That is how I felt on RetroB. A bunch of kids that never wanted to leave the playground.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on September 24, 2018, 02:05:49 AM
*makes a rude noise*

I have no problem with hobby programmers - but when they whine about 'not being able to use X() because', I get quite irate.

What a lot of them don't understand is that different tools are for different jobs.

I suppose spaghetti has it's purpose in the computer world (can you say 'obfuscation'?), but the continuation of line numbers came from the need to reduce the size of the interpreters and the use of a primitive line-editor, even though it originated in the use of punched cards *shudders*.

Maybe the kids just want to go back to the time of 8-bit computing, PEEK & POKE, and cassette storage?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 24, 2018, 08:08:26 AM
Quote
Maybe the kids just want to go back to the time of 8-bit computing, PEEK & POKE, and cassette storage?

Makes me want to knit a sweater.

Quote
Because god forbid that anyone gets any enjoyment out of something they create for their own pleasure, yeah?

The Toys R Us name may be available.

I now know how Patrice felt being an early pioneer of the PB to C++ migration.

Script BASIC - The mature not dated BASIC.


Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 24, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
The current challenge going on at RetroB is being able to walk away with your reputation intact.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on September 24, 2018, 01:12:44 PM
Girls Just Wanna Have Fun (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PIb6AZdTr-A)

:D
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 24, 2018, 01:17:33 PM
Quote
Script BASIC was finished even way back when it first appeared on its original scriptbasic dot com site. It came in two flavors (Linux and Windows), was supplied with exhaustive user and developer documentation, and included a number of exemplary and practical extensions (both front- and back-end) to allow for future diversification and expansion.

Peter Verhas was as meticulous a language developer as there only can be. What his successors tried and achieved to a varying degree of success was building upon the solid base he was so prescient to provide.

That is the best and most honest statement about the status of SB I have heard to date, Thanks for getting everyone derailed back on track.

Anything I've asked of Script BASIC has never uncovered a limitation. That builds loyalty and the desire to promote its merit.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 24, 2018, 10:45:35 PM
Quote
So tell John he can come back. (if he wants to)

There isn't anyone there that isn't already on the All BASIC forum (including the owner of RetroB) I care to collaborate with. (No D&B presence or instances of the Aurel class) Many of the BASIC developers are members as that was the forum's focus in the beginning. It's more of of senior developer group that pings each other from time to time. Of course you will always have something going on with Script BASIC extending its feature set.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 24, 2018, 11:47:24 PM
There are only 3 BASIC languages I will spend any time with or contribute code for.


Every other language I work with is non-BASIC. (C, PHP, JavaScript)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on September 25, 2018, 02:05:33 AM
Quote from: John on September 24, 2018, 12:03:07 PM
The current challenge going on at RetroB is being able to walk away with your reputation intact.

That's a non-starter in the first place.

The kids' bickering ruins their reputations.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 25, 2018, 07:59:51 AM
RetroB needs to declare they're a hobby group and profressional programmers stay away as they are spoiling the fun.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 25, 2018, 09:01:49 AM
Quote
"Script Basic was finished even way back when it first appeared..."(see attachment)

2001 or 2002? I forget, it was done deal back then, no new development needed.

Doesn't that make it dead according to Tomaaz opinion, sorry I still say it's an opinion?

Script BASIC was released in 2001 as an embeddable scripting engine. Scriba the console interpreter was created as an example of how to use the language API as was the web server to show multi-tbreading. Why should I try to meet the needs of hobbyist with a demo program?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 25, 2018, 09:24:47 AM
Quote from: B+
You know this challenge was originally directed at Script Basic, I confess now that I worked up my boring example (probably not a great example of SmallBASIC) and Peter his, could someone offer a good representative one of Script Basic code? Maybe AlyssonR or (old) Mike?

Heck! I wouldn't mind seeing new Mike's version either! :) maybe a GUI sample, I would think it actually useful and not waste of time.

And D, can SpecBas do this?

"Inquiring minds want to know."

Script BASIC has directory walking built into the syntax of the language.

RTFM (https://www.scriptbasic.org/docs/ug/ug_12.14.html)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 25, 2018, 11:46:06 AM
Rather than posting forum farts and challenging each other to their potency, the All BASIC wiki is a resource to document and share concepts that may improve the BASIC language in general.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 25, 2018, 11:58:06 AM
I think Aurel missed his calling. He should be hosting a geek show with a Cramer Mad Money twist.

Mark (B+) needs to come up for air. It would be embarrassing to find him face down in a toddlers pool.  :-\
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 25, 2018, 11:30:33 PM
BRUN

(https://allbasic.info/picture_library/BRUN.gif)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on September 26, 2018, 01:54:45 AM
Quote from: John on September 25, 2018, 09:24:47 AM
Quote from: B+
You know this challenge was originally directed at Script Basic, I confess now that I worked up my boring example (probably not a great example of SmallBASIC) and Peter his, could someone offer a good representative one of Script Basic code? Maybe AlyssonR or (old) Mike?

Heck! I wouldn't mind seeing new Mike's version either! :) maybe a GUI sample, I would think it actually useful and not waste of time.

And D, can SpecBas do this?

"Inquiring minds want to know."

Script BASIC has directory walking built into the syntax of the language.

RTFM (https://www.scriptbasic.org/docs/ug/ug_12.14.html)


AlyssonR will NOT be entering into the debate over there ... I think it would be fair to say that I'm not bothering with them at all.

Hell's bells, I only joined in order to access John'a thread on COM.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on September 26, 2018, 04:25:56 AM
John,

May I vocalize some BP-ers' invitation for you to re-join the BASIC section of retrogamecoding dot org? I promised them to do that.

I think with a pinch of good humor added to your attitude towards you new (old) co-forumers, you can still manage very well there. :)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 28, 2018, 08:14:23 AM
Peter Verhas and his new Java 11 book.

(https://www.allbasic.info/picture_library/Peter_Verhas.png)

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on September 29, 2018, 01:58:52 AM
Quote from: John on September 28, 2018, 08:14:23 AM
Peter Verhas and his new Java 11 book.


 :o :o :o :o

*Prepares her bleeper, VB6 text and LED lamp to exorcise Peter of the evil spirit possessing him*

 ;D ;D
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 29, 2018, 09:40:17 AM
I keep forgetting you are a she, not that it matters. Excuse any past references to he.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on September 29, 2018, 10:40:35 PM
Hey, John!

For the DirWalk thing, you should have just pointed them to Reading a Directory (https://www.scriptbasic.org/forum/index.php/topic,133.msg309.html#msg309)

Anyway, on my Mac I coded and ran this against the Scriptbasic source (old 2.1_RC3_OSX):

Code: ScriptBasic
  1. fn = FREEFILE()
  2. Search_Options = SbCollectFullPath AND SbCollectRecursively AND SbSortByName AND SbSortAscending
  3.  
  4. OPEN DIRECTORY "/Users/riveraa/Downloads/src" PATTERN "*.c" OPTION Search_Options AS #fn
  5. RESET DIRECTORY #fn
  6.  
  7. fName = NEXTFILE(fn)
  8. WHILE fName <> undef
  9.     PRINT fName & "\n"
  10.     fName = NEXTFILE(fn)
  11. WEND
  12.  
  13. CLOSE DIRECTORY #fn
  14.  
  15.  
  16.  


Output is attached.  But I do have a question:  Is the generated list accessible, or would I have to copy the output of NEXTFILE into a separate list?  Just curious.

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 29, 2018, 11:02:07 PM
Hi AIR,

I forgot all about that post. (10 years ago) Thanks for giving it a refresh for the RetroB challenge.

Quote
Output is attached.  But I do have a question:  Is the generated list accessible, or would I have to copy the output of NEXTFILE into a separate list?  Just curious.

I would create an associative array with the directory names being the key. You could use UBOUND on an array key to get the number of files in that directory for example.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on September 30, 2018, 12:03:29 AM
Thanks, but that's overkill.  I just wanted to save the listing to a file instead of redirecting the output to a file in a terminal using ">".

Code: ScriptBasic
  1. fn = FREEFILE()
  2. file_list = ""
  3. Search_Options = SbCollectFullPath AND SbCollectRecursively AND SbSortByName AND SbSortAscending
  4.  
  5. OPEN DIRECTORY "/Users/riveraa/Downloads/src" PATTERN "*.c" OPTION Search_Options AS #fn
  6. RESET DIRECTORY #fn
  7.  
  8. fName = NEXTFILE(fn)
  9. WHILE fName <> undef
  10.     file_list &= fName & "\n"
  11.     fName = NEXTFILE(fn)
  12. WEND
  13.  
  14. CLOSE DIRECTORY #fn
  15.  
  16. OPEN "output.txt" FOR output AS #fn
  17. PRINT #fn,file_list
  18. CLOSE #fn
  19.  

Man, I've been coding in C# and Objective-C for so long that I keep putting semi-colons everywhere as I type in my editor!!!!   ;D

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on September 30, 2018, 01:38:46 AM
I keep forgetting about associative arrays.

I might try them out with a JSON datafile or two.

On the other hand, I *could* just carry on as I am.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 09:08:44 AM
AIR,

Just open a file handle at the top of your code and PRINT to the file rather than the screen.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 09:50:56 AM
Quote
John, please consider rejoining the forum. The BASIC community is too small and life is too short for arguments and fallouts to be sustained.

Heart warming that I'm missed but all my efforts are going towards the VB6 Forms OCX direction and getting Script BASIC as part of the Ubuntu distribution. At 66, (this Nov.) My time left here on earth needs to be used wisely.

It makes me happy every morning I wake up and given another day. Time is the most valuable asset.

Quote from: Tomaaz
I would love to see, for example, ScripBasic distributed in this format. What do you think?

I'm looking at using a Snap to distribute Script BASIC on Linux distributions.

The All BASIC wiki is a great place for all of us to help BASIC stay relevant without our personalities getting in the way.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 10:37:51 AM
Quote from: Tomaaz
The result is a bit surprising. I was expecting it to be 50/50, but it looks like Windows easily "wins". Aurel must be delighted. ;)

I view the Windows desktop migration to Linux like the migration of gas powered cars to electric.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 12:48:02 PM
Quote
I keep forgetting about associative arrays.

I might try them out with a JSON datafile or two.

On the other hand, I *could* just carry on as I am.

Script BASIC arrays is one of its stronger features. You can use index based or associative or a combination of both. There isn't a practical limitation to the number or depth of indices or the data type they contain. Copying array structures or portions of them to another array (matrix) is nothing more than an assignment.

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on September 30, 2018, 12:53:21 PM
Quote from: John on September 30, 2018, 09:08:44 AM
AIR,

Just open a file handle at the top of your code and PRINT to the file rather than the screen.

My second post with code does this (reusing the file handle I used for the OPEN DIRECTORY call which according to the docs should be safe to do since the actual handles are different for each "object"), I guess you missed it....
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 12:58:55 PM
Quote
I guess you missed it....

No.

My point was no need to build a string before printing it to a file as a whole. Your first example just needed to PRINT # to a file rather than the screen. Small code reduction but both result in the same output.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 01:11:22 PM
Quote from: Tomaaz
The whole idea of "this thing" is to work everywhere. Do you mean BaCon together with a compiler, C and GTK libraries etc. in one file? The file would be probably massive, but yes - that would be easy to use.

That is what containers are used for.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on September 30, 2018, 01:59:36 PM
Quote from: John on September 30, 2018, 12:58:55 PM

My point was no need to build a string before printing it to a file as a whole. Your first example just needed to PRINT # to a file rather than the screen. Small code reduction but both result in the same output.

I originally did it like that, but was concerned that I was modifying the file system while looping over the directory contents.

Also, doing it as you suggest means I'll be making multiple calls to add a single line to the file, instead of a single call at the end to write all of the lines at once.

The data being saved is small in this case, but if it were a large data set I think the performance hit would be noticeable.  File I/O can be expensive, as you know....

If the internal list were exposed, then the need for building the string would be eliminated, I could just PRINT # the list in a loop and call it a day.  :)

AIR.

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 02:59:39 PM
It would be interesting to see what is more efficient, printing the output to a file or concatenating the output to a string and then printing it.

You can create/open your output file wherever you have permissions for using the path with your OPEN.   
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on September 30, 2018, 07:44:32 PM
The RetroB forum was fun when it was focused on retro BASIC and Games. As soon as it tried to be everything to everyone, it lost its focus and became a place to vent.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 01, 2018, 08:43:45 PM
Quote
N.B. If you are using PB to develop your ThinBasic interpreter, in accordance with your PB license you can't just create a wrapper to the PB UTF8toChr$ function, but using the MultiByteToWideChar functin would be OK..

Not only is Eros using a dead BASIC, he can't use the features of the compiler due to license issues.  The definition of blind loyalty or inability to accept change?

If I were Eros, I would become good friends with Patrice and beg him to share his C++ translations of PB code.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on October 01, 2018, 11:50:13 PM
No need to beg, really. Using system WinAPI (strings) and msvcrt.dll (numbers) for similar purposes under MS Windows is in fact pretty obvious and straight-forward, and should be a piece of cake for anyone who professes an SDK programming style, which I'm sure Eros does.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 02, 2018, 03:45:52 AM
When I'm gone, there shouldn't be a problem with someone continuing on with Script BASIC being written in ANSI C. Who would want to carry on with thinBasic after he is gone? Eros will take his BASIC with him just like Zale did.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on October 02, 2018, 12:27:55 PM
Eros is young enough not to addle his brain with such matters yet. :D OTOH he seems to be a chopper racing addict and this is somewhat alarming... ;D


(Note the license plate letters! :D )
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 02, 2018, 02:00:02 PM
Eros has a big heart but that is his greatest vulnerability.

No one should take life for granted. Everyday is a gift.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 02, 2018, 02:35:04 PM
Quote
HOLY CARP! You're right!

I even added 32bit graphics to SpecBAS for that reason. Damn, I need to see if I can dig the code out.

I had posted many Script BASIC examples using FIX yet Paul Dunny ignored it and claimed SB as unfinished. Everything looks unfinished if guided by bitterness. I think Paul was better off being a nurse.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on October 02, 2018, 05:59:21 PM
No, the problem was not with FIX, which was implemented in SpecBAS all right (though under the name INT), but rather with INT proper that's an equivalent to the floor() function in C.

FBSL BASIC did not use classic BASIC INT function name for truncation towards negative infinity because, similar to C, FBSL also uses casts. FBSL BASIC's C-stylish int cast is equivalent to stripping a floating point number of its decimal digits altogether without concurrent rounding in any direction. It's the fastest thing you can do to avoid function call and exec overhead, and in many cases it is sufficient to achieve the desired conversion effect. OTOH INT, FIX, ROUND and the like are math functions incurring call/return overhead and multiple CPU/FPU operations.

We deemed it unreasonable to confuse the FBSL users with similar sounding int casts and int function, so we decided to call our int function Floor(), and again similar to C, its counterpart Ceil() that we used to truncate floating point numbers towards positive infinity.

After all, a modern mature BASIC's semantics and vocabulary are supposed to get richer 50+ years since Dartmouth, aren't they? ;)

(Stop grumbling, John, it's unreasonable to keep waving fists after the fight. ;) )
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on October 04, 2018, 10:29:16 AM
Actually Paul does have one (http://www.zxspectrum4.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=6). ;)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 04, 2018, 10:54:03 AM
Seems dead. It might be the reason he is so bitter on RetroB.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: erosolmi on October 04, 2018, 11:15:04 AM
Mike, what an investigator :)
Plate ends with 007
 ;D

KTM Superduke 1290
182hp
Already done 73k km with it. 2 incidents alone for going too fast :)
Wheelie in 3th gear for hundred of meters
A pleasure to drive.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rr4CZUJqCuo

Anyway, if I will die, I've already left instructions to release thinBasic code as free to all ... mmmmh maybe someone will kill me to have sources?
Keep calm and go programming instead of loosing all that time in writing useless posts.

Ciao

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 04, 2018, 11:19:34 AM
I would concur that Eros is our 007 of the BASIC world.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 05, 2018, 10:23:20 AM
B+ (Mark) reminds me of the guy who can't pass up trash on the curb without scoring through it to see if there is anything of value.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on October 20, 2018, 01:58:17 AM
No matter what the intention behind scriba, it is an excellent crossplatform scripting engine.

While not as rich as the VBS engine on Windows, it is quite a bit faster for many things, and will generally run scripts natively on at least Windows and *ix.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 20, 2018, 08:54:59 AM
Script BASIC is the super glue in my software toolbox.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on October 20, 2018, 10:56:25 PM
Quote from: John on October 20, 2018, 10:33:52 AM
When code challenges become more complex then the job I'm being paid to write, the pissing contest rapidly loses my interest.

Code challenges that might have real world application are going to be more complex than trivial crap like the Floyd Triangle. 

Honestly, if you want SB to be seriously considered as a part of someone's arsenal, then just show what it can do and possibly how easy it can do it.  Let the platform speak for itself.

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 20, 2018, 11:13:27 PM
Quote from: AIR
Code challenges that might have real world application are going to be more complex than trivial crap like the Floyd Triangle.


The point of a SB Floyd's Triangle was to explain to Tomaaz that one line of multiple statements desn't always mean less code. The other lesson was just because SB is an interpreter, it holds its own against compiled alternatives.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on October 20, 2018, 11:31:33 PM
Quote from: John on October 20, 2018, 11:13:27 PM
The point of a SB Floyd's Triangle was to explain to Tomaaz that one line of multiple statements desn't always mean less code. The other lesson was just because SB is an interpreter, it holds its own against compiled alternatives.

I'm not knocking your solution, it was pretty elegant in it's simplicity.

My point is, how applicable is that to a real world scenario?  How would SB fare in solving a more complex real world programming challenge? Other than Peter, I think you're the only other person who could provide examples at this point.  Am I egging you on a bit?  Guilty. 

I'm not saying do the wordsearch challenge; what I AM saying is show how SB would make a typical programming problem easier to solve.  At the end of the day, I use whichever language makes it easiest to achieve a required goal. Sometimes it's an interpreted (scripting) language, other times compiled.  But even though I've been around SB a bit, and even though I've gone through it's guts at times, I've never used it as you do.  I've always had other options, and used them instead.

So I'm asking you to share some stuff that is applicable in a real world programming scenario, and show what SB can actually DO to make my life as a coder easier....

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 21, 2018, 12:15:50 AM
I think what I doing with interfacing with VB6 OCX forms as intelligent UI objects is a step up from Floyd.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on October 21, 2018, 02:12:48 AM
Quote from: John on October 21, 2018, 12:15:50 AM
I think what I doing with interfacing with VB6 OCX forms as intelligent UI objects is a step up from Floyd.

Maybe so, and I am very interested, but it is a bit too esoteric for most - and it might smack a bit of of filling in failings in the language.

Unfortunately, a toolbox language is unlikely to win any arguments against people who are keen on big-front-end languages and their own favourite tool-box languages.

Coding challenges are a reasonable way of comparing languages but, IMHO, the challenges tend to either be excessively simplistic (Floyd triangle) or overly complex (chess solver, a traditional challenge class). I find them rather tedious, and the religious wars arising to be ... irritating.

The traditional example applications (in a fairly random order) used to be:-
These all show off some aspect of the language to the prospective user though they are, admittedly, rather unexciting.

To my mind, the most useful examples are programs that contain some useful, reusable code that can be compared for speed and efficiency (like sorting routines, simple database operations like "find in file filename.asc", Simple user I/O routines etc.) and where aesthetics may be considered (screen handling, user interface etc.).

But, there again, I don't program for fun - I program for a purpose, and use whichever tool meets my needs best. Right now, that is a combo of SB and VB6.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 21, 2018, 02:25:53 AM
The Vintage BASIC interpreter has tons of examples and games. Most will port to SB with little effort. (line numbers and all)

I know where SB works for me. Getting that message across to others has done nothing but generated bitterness and calling Script BASIC spam.

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on October 22, 2018, 02:37:40 AM
I think he's just a bit linguistic identity confused ;)
 
... or, he could just be trolling a bit.

I know that most examples translate fairly easily, but ultimately, games are not a lot of use to me.

Like you, I know where SB is appropriate to use and, more importantly, where it is not (currently, that is).

Unfortunately, when any of us get into discussions about programming languages then people tend to defend their religious icons vigorously, disregarding the actual words used, points made or actual usage posture of the language - even though it is like comparing the DBase III language with Algol - they exist for different purposes.

Frankly, I don't believe that programming fora are the place for promoting serious tools anymore. I'm not sure where is, either. Part of the problem is that every man and his dog has written their own version of BASIC (or whatever) - and of such varying quality that it is impossible to sift through them.

Oh, and I think that Tomaaz is trying to find CUMaC - a language that included elements of a whole bunch of langauges and achieved my award for "The Worst Programming Language Ever".
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on October 22, 2018, 04:51:15 AM
Quote from: AlyssonR on October 22, 2018, 02:37:40 AM
I think he's just a bit linguistic identity confused ;)
 
... or, he could just be trolling a bit.

...Or in showing how other languages approach a given problem, possibly nudge BASIC language developers to incorporate things into their respective offerings that makes coding easier overall...

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 22, 2018, 09:40:04 AM
Why on a retro Basic and game site? Paul is the only developer there. If it isn't Z80 based, he has little interest.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on October 22, 2018, 09:46:36 AM
You're not accounting for any "lurkers" in the crowd.  I, for instance, check that forum regularly (never was approved for an account, but that's another story...LOL)

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 23, 2018, 12:07:14 PM
Quote from: Tomaaz@RetroB
When I was registered there, it was dead. Now, AIR's posting examples in Bash, Python, Ruby, Nim... And this place here is... dead. Guys, why can't we have one forum for everything?  ;D

Use the right forum for the challenge.  8)

AIR's challenge wasn't hobby programming related.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on October 23, 2018, 04:42:58 PM
I knew Tomaaz was lurking!!!  Glad I was right!!! ;D

I've always enjoyed his code offerings...and his humor!

BTW, I posted my code in various languages in the OPEN forum section to show how each could implement a solution.  I was hoping that some of the members here could chime in with how their favorite BASIC or other language could do the same.  Any takers?  Please improve my code where needed; even though I can cover several different languages, I'm always looking to improve!!

AIR.

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 23, 2018, 05:07:57 PM
Quote
BTW, I posted my code in various languages in the OPEN forum section to show how each could implement a solution.  I was hoping that some of the members here could chime in with how their favorite BASIC or other language could do the same.  Any takers?  Please improve my code where needed; even though I can cover several different languages, I'm always looking to improve!!

What's ahead for All BASIC is a new board for multi-language code challenges and a local copy of GitLab CE for established members as a repository sandbox.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 23, 2018, 06:43:12 PM
Quote from: Tomaaz@RetroB
ZeroBrane Studio

OK. Why wasn't I using it? This is a fantastic IDE for Lua. It comes with easy to use graphics libraries (with tons of examples) and support for projects like LOVE or Corona. I'm definitely familiar with the name, but I didn't know it was so good.

Website - https://studio.zerobrane.com/

When I saw the Lua reference I assumed the IDE was built using IUP. Too bad it's not or I could have used it.  :'(
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 25, 2018, 03:31:08 PM
It is refreshing to be a member of a forum with bright people and not be focused on fighting and bitterness.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 27, 2018, 08:19:31 PM
Quote from: B+@RetroB
The problem is in the nuklear code library for circle drawing with lines:

How circles are done.

SDL_gfx (https://www.allbasic.info/forum/index.php?topic=343.msg3813#msg3813)


Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 28, 2018, 01:15:45 PM
Quote from: B+@RetroB
Oh wait, you probably can't see it at all! 

No guest attachments, syntax highlighting, limited editing of posts and a brawl in progress most of the time doesn't make folks want to participate in your fun challenges.

Quote from: B+@RetroB
OK John for your circle drawing challenge, try this

Mark,

I think I made it clear to everyone that I'm not a hobby programmer. I still enjoy viewing your magic.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 30, 2018, 04:03:34 PM
Quote from: D@RetroB
Excuse my ignorance, but what's special about Else If?

ELSE IF allows for nested IF structures. Script BASIC doesn't have a SELECT/CASE structure. ELSE IF does the same but with the added advantage of expression and not just constants for the CASE directive.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on October 30, 2018, 07:28:43 PM
Quite a few modern languages allow more than just constants or numbers these days...

Personally, once I get to the point where I'm nesting IF/ElseIf, I switch to Select/Switch/etc.

Nested ElseIf's are as bad on these eyes as badly formatted brackets in C are....and just as hard to follow.

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on October 31, 2018, 09:57:26 AM
The All BASIC forum surpassed its November 2010 max online number. Once again AIR saves the BASIC day.  8)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 09, 2018, 08:59:59 AM
Oxygen and Script BASIC may be the only open source BASIC languages still in active development. If I'm wrong, who else?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on November 09, 2018, 09:33:56 AM
BaCon.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 09, 2018, 09:44:04 AM
I hope Mike is doing okay. I miss him here on All BASIC.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on November 09, 2018, 01:02:10 PM
Quote from: John on November 09, 2018, 10:30:52 AM
SOB open source BASIC's.

What does SOB mean?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on November 09, 2018, 03:13:25 PM
Well there's .....

Umm, no.

Or there's .....

Oh, that's gone, too.

Nope, I think you got it exactly.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 09, 2018, 04:16:36 PM
There is one common trait between these BASIC languages, passionate developers with a desire for simplicity.



Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on November 10, 2018, 02:19:43 AM
Quote from: John on November 09, 2018, 01:20:52 PM
Scriptbasic Oxygenbasic Bacon

Hard core BASIC projects.  8)

I would suggest that Bacon is its own reward - a sizzling and fragrant BASIC, perhaps.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on November 13, 2018, 09:54:33 AM
Different tools for different jobs.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 13, 2018, 11:16:10 AM
I can't see where I would use BaCon vs SB. The speed difference for tasks I would write would be undetectable. I'm too spoiled not having to declare everything before I get started with the task at hand to use anything else.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on November 13, 2018, 11:50:38 AM
You have this maddening tendency to delete/modify posts.

Your original post was about using C-Basic/Jade vs Bacon.

SB has NOTHING to do with my response, which is about c/c++ macros definitions vs BaCon.

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 13, 2018, 12:18:40 PM
Sorry, I quoted the wrong post so I had to delete my response.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 14, 2018, 12:06:49 AM
I'm looking for constructive feedback.

If you have tried Script BASIC, what do you dislike about it the most?

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on November 14, 2018, 01:56:46 AM
The one thing that I am spoiled for, and most languages lack (and not just BASIC of any flavour) is a quick and easy, drag & drop interface form designer (I was spoiled by VB6, after all) with all of the event handling bundled up alongside.

We have had this conversation often in the past.

Otherwise, I find SB to be eminently useful for back-end and background functions, even if I do use VB6 lmost exclusively.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 14, 2018, 08:40:16 AM
Script BASIC by design is an embeddable scripting engine API that comes with a console mode interpreter and multi-threaded web server as examples of its use. Drag & drop is outside of the scope of its purpose.

You might want to check out the IUP IDE code challenge to make your wish come true.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 14, 2018, 11:34:06 AM
Quote
Otherwise, I find SB to be eminently useful for back-end and background functions, even if I do use VB6 lmost exclusively.

VB6 and Script BASIC in your toolbox almost makes programming a free ride.  8)

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 14, 2018, 08:02:42 PM
This Dilbert strip pretty much makes my point why I use Script BASIC.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on November 14, 2018, 08:11:06 PM
Well....it took me half a day to setup up a SB dev environment on my Mac....I had to modify SB's perl files to get it to detect my perl paths so it could install the esd.pl module...so there's that.  And no, it's not a macOS issue, the detection code was written against an old version of perl (early 2000's)...it wouldn't work on my RasPI or Linux server either until I tweaked it.

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 14, 2018, 08:34:55 PM
Those build scripts and make files have only been touched by you since I picked up the project from Peter. I was serious when I said SB wouldn't be where it is today without the many contributions to the project you have made.

The comic refers to application programming not language development.

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on November 15, 2018, 01:38:56 AM
@Air -

Thankyou. Can we expect to see your tweaks rolled into the SB release at some point?

Given that I'm not using Linux or Mac, this is just for information.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on November 15, 2018, 06:26:30 AM
I would assume so; John is handling that part...
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 15, 2018, 09:41:58 AM
AIR maintains his own private SB-DEV sandbox which I'm pulling from and pushing to the public version in the sandbox. I'm pushing my extension modules I built over the years and will follow up with integrating it into the current build system. I'm following AIR's lead as he is more experianced in this area.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 15, 2018, 11:42:03 PM
The future of BASIC is dependent on its ability to stay relevant.  I feel Script BASIC is the best hope to keep the language in the toolbox.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AlyssonR on November 16, 2018, 01:48:20 AM
Thank you both.

To my mind, BASIC will always be relevant at, at least, some level.

I've always found it to be the best tool for quick & dirty automation tasks, and when I was stil sysadminning at a school, it was my go-to for the annual file purge and user-account regeneration. An estimated 12 hours of keypushing reduced to a single command-line and a wait of 4 hours for the job to complete.

I never said it was fast, did I?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 20, 2018, 07:48:13 PM
Quote from: Brian P. Hogan (https://bphogan.com/)
I’ve coded since 1988. Tech comes and goes. To have a long career:

1. Learn how to learn
2. Build comm skills
3. Continuously improve through challenges, practice, and feedback
4. Show empathy
5. Be ethical
6. Give more than you get
7. Show humility
8. Be flexible
9. Show up
Title: Re: BASIC - Naalaa MIA
Post by: John on November 20, 2018, 09:39:23 PM
Quote
Cool idea.

If we had a dedicated NaaLaa section on this forum, the problem would be solved.

Marcus is an All BASIC forum member / developer that makes occasional announcements. He is always welcome here in any form.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on November 24, 2018, 10:11:58 AM
Scripting is the new programming language standard.

Who would ever of thought a browser scripting engine would evolve into an Enterprise server?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 06, 2019, 05:53:35 PM
Quote from: Tomaaz@RetroB
For me, it was terrible. I rejoined this forum only to find it being dead. Some of the other forums look more like blogs. We used to complain about the level of activity on BP.org, but comparing to today's forums that place was extremely busy. The only BASIC that looks alive to me is BaCon. Other compilers/interpreters are either not being developed or used any more (I don't care about commercial products). The development of (not so long ago) busy and advanced projects has stopped or slowed down dramatically (QB64, OpenEuphoria, FreeBASIC). Python has been widely accepted as the language for beginners - Raspberry Pi (which I find boring and overrated) is probably the main reason for it. Several attempts to bring BASIC to Raspberry Pi have failed. The same can be said about mobile devices. Sorry guys, but it looks bad.

I guess Tomaaz hasn't been visiting the All BASIC or Oxygen Basic forums lately. AIR is active on the All BASIC forum cleaning up the Script BASIC distributions for Linux, Mac and Pi. The Gitlab sandbox has worked out great supplementing forum activity.

Charles is in the process of converting his FreeBasic version of his BASIC compiler to self compiling.

In all, I think BASIC had a great year. Leaving the RetoB forum and the bitter folks I left behind has made my life happier.

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 08, 2019, 09:25:15 AM
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 09, 2019, 11:51:07 PM
Man, this topic was good in the beginning (Mike's Comment especially) (https://www.allbasic.info/forum/index.php?topic=496.msg5312#msg5312) but has spiraled out of control.

I don't agree with everything Mike posted, but it was well thought out and presented.

So, can we go back to talking about BASIC and/or other languages, and what functionality we could "borrow" to make our respective language of choice better than it is at the moment?

Personally, my interest is in something that is cross-platform, meaning Windows/Linux/macOS.  Most of the offerings in the BASIC world omit at least one of the OS's in my mini-list.

For example:

Bacon Linux/macOS

MBC   Linux/macOS

FBSL  Windows

ScriptBasic  Linux/Windows/macOS

Xojo (Commercial) Linux/Windows/macOS

PureBasic (Commercial) Linux/Windows/macOS

VB6 (Commercial) Windows

BlitzMax Linux/Windows/macOS

I know there are more, please add what you've seen/tried and your thoughts.

BTW, I know about https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_BASIC_dialects, so no need to direct me there.  I'm going over that list.   ;D

AIR.





Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 07:38:16 AM
Quote
ScriptBasic  Linux/Windows/macOS

Pi
Android Linux
Various embedded controller OS platforms

Basically EVERYTHING.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 07:53:33 AM
Quote from: John on January 10, 2019, 07:38:16 AM
Quote
ScriptBasic  Linux/Windows/macOS

Can anyone show me a screenshot of Script BASIC running natively under macOS, preferably in a windowed mode rather than the terminal? ;)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 08:01:45 AM
AIR is the SB Mac OS pro. All distributions for that platform is from AIR. I remember an IUP Mac example but AIR felt it wasn't worth investing in due to not being a native solution.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 08:55:55 AM
Script BASIC is a glue and prototyping language that is generic enough that its code can be easily ported to another language. Not having to define anything before use makes the language a great general purpose scripting solution. The unlimited seamless extension ability is also a plus.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 09:22:07 AM
FBSL

Mike,

FBSL is an amazing language you should be very proud of. If nothing else it a statement of your skills and professional stance on what a language is all about. SB has been a good friend to me and has gotten me though some rough times when nothing else worked as a distraction.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 09:39:50 AM
Quote from: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 07:53:33 AM
Quote from: John on January 10, 2019, 07:38:16 AM
Quote
ScriptBasic  Linux/Windows/macOS

Can anyone show me a screenshot of Script BASIC running natively under macOS, preferably in a windowed mode rather than the terminal? ;)

Using my unreleased Cocoa Objects Library:

Code: ScriptBasic
  1. import cui.bas
  2.  
  3. cui::init()
  4.  
  5. mywin = cui::Window("ScriptBasic - AIR's Cocoa Objects Library", 400, 300)
  6. entry = cui::TextBox(mywin,"Welcome to Air's Cocoa Objects Demo",16,16,280,26)
  7. btn = cui::Button(mywin,"Click",300,16,90,26)
  8.  
  9. cui::run()
  10.  

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 09:48:22 AM
Thanks AIR!  8)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 10:50:21 AM
Quote from: John on January 10, 2019, 07:38:16 AM
Quote
ScriptBasic  Linux/Windows/macOS

Pi
Android Linux
Various embedded controller OS platforms

Basically EVERYTHING.

Pi runs Linux

Android runs Linux.

I'm specifically targeting OS's, not Platforms.  For example, both PC's and Mac can run Linux. Mac can run Windows, PC's can run macOS (although not legally).

Another one for the list:

UbxBasic (by James Fuller) Linux/Windows/macOS [I tested this earlier today under macOS]

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 10:58:03 AM
SB is written in ANSI C. If the OS supports a C compiler, SB will run on It.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 11:13:18 AM
Okay, we know about SB.

Have you looked at any others over the years? 
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 11:19:45 AM
Quote from: AIR on January 10, 2019, 11:13:18 AM
Okay, we know about SB.

Have you looked at any others over the years?

I know you're not a Windows fan but have you checked out the Oxygen Basic project?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 12:08:23 PM
My only knock against Windows (for years now) is that their default shell sux. 

Powershell is an improvement, but could be better from a usability standpoint.

(I don't mean Powershell isn't usable, I use it all of the time as my default shell in Windows, but the requirement that you need to change it's default security settings to actually execute scripts locally is a bummer.  When I do this, I do this only as an unprivileged user and not globally, which should have been the default setting IMO.  Interestingly, with Powershell under macOS this restriction doesn't apply.  Go figure)

In Windows, macOS, and Linux I would rather invoke a single command with parameters than have to click 5 times to do the same thing.  Guess I'm old-school, having started with CP/M back in the day.

Back on topic:  Oxygen is something that I haven't looked at, will check it out even though it's Win-only at this point.  Thanks!

AIR.


Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 01:54:52 PM
My suggestion is to try the DLLC SB extension module Charles wrote in O2.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 02:08:55 PM
Quote from: John on January 10, 2019, 09:22:07 AM
FBSL

Thanks John! :)

Quote from: AIR on January 10, 2019, 09:39:50 AM
Using my unreleased Cocoa Objects Library:

Thanks Armando!

What is the license for the macOS native Script BASIC and where can I get its sources should the license so permit?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 02:11:29 PM
Quote from: Mike Lobanovsky on January 10, 2019, 02:08:55 PM

Thanks Armando!

What is the license for the macOS native Script BASIC and where can I get its sources should the license so permit?

ScriptBasic License is MIT, afaik.  It's up in the SANDBOX here.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 02:13:23 PM
Quote
Using my unreleased Cocoa Objects Library:

Is your plan to be able to callback to SB SUB/FUNCTION's?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 02:45:04 PM
Not anytime soon, since callbacks to the internal engine itself are not straightforward from extension modules.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 02:52:20 PM
Dave Zimmer's COM module would be a good example of calling back to SB function/subs in the same process. DLLC does it from another thread. This is high on my list for IUP so I don't have to do IupLoopStepWait() returning to SB with every event.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 03:01:41 PM
I don't see them in the sandbox.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 03:37:46 PM
Until I do, check out the VB6 OCX SB example I posted on the forum. It's calling back to SB functions from the OCX.

BTW Peter Verhas runs on a Mac and I sent him your Mac install. You may want to let him know what you're up to.

I need to update Dave's COM source with the enhancements Mike did to allow object reference arguments creating new objects.

Here is the BitBucket repo to my updated version of Dave's base but doesn't include Mike's enhancements. I plan to move this repo to the sandbox.

https://bitbucket.org/ScriptBasic/com/src/master/
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 10, 2019, 04:27:28 PM
That path doesn't exist, or I don't have rights to see it.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 10, 2019, 04:42:25 PM
Sorry!

It got marked private for some reason. Please try again.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 11, 2019, 03:17:30 AM
Quote from: AIR on January 10, 2019, 02:11:29 PM
ScriptBasic License is MIT, afaik.  It's up in the SANDBOX here.

MIT permits derivative works to be closed-sourced at their authors' option. That's the reason I asked.

Thanks for keeping your fork open to public!
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 11, 2019, 09:15:15 AM
Quote from: Mike@RetroB
He's also the author of recent ScriptBasic for Java. Probably he knows better the merits and drawbacks of his latest opus as compared to "classic" Script BASIC that runs natively under Windows, all sorts of Linuxes, and macOS, both 32 and 64 bits.

I think the crap reference is about his Java implementation of SB. It never seemed to take off like Peter had hoped. I wish Peter would have stayed with C.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 11, 2019, 10:35:02 AM
Mike,

I would be honored if you would lead the Windows version of Script BASIC like AIR is doing with the Mac version of SB. I can focus on Linux and man the 'store' but if SB is ever going to relevant in the future, it's going to take pros like you and AIR to bring this home.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 11, 2019, 10:59:48 AM
It took AIR years of blind retreat behind the "RETIRED BASIC developer" shield to decide on such a heroic step. It's been just a few months since I hid behind mine. ;D
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 11, 2019, 11:15:33 AM
We are at the point in our lives we need to be thinking about the legacy we are going to leave behind. I'm sad FBSL didn't achieve the success you hoped for but a Windows only BASIC these days is an up hill battle. You have already been under the SB covers an appreciate the work Peter invested in the BASIC. Peter gave me the opertunity of a lifetime when he trusted me to carry on with his work. I'm not going to let him down.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 11, 2019, 04:36:08 PM
I see no future for ScriptBasic for Java when there are free BASIC to Java translators that are mature and popular.

https://www.b4x.com/b4j.html

Quote from: Mkke@RetroB
After all, I think implementing an interpreter in another interpreter was an ill idea in the first place.

I couldn't have said it any better.

Quote
Normal iOS applications cannot run in the background (there are no services in iOS).
 

Interesting!
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 11, 2019, 07:51:41 PM
Quote from: John on January 11, 2019, 04:36:08 PM

Quote
Normal iOS applications cannot run in the background (there are no services in iOS).
 

Interesting!

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/uikit/core_app/managing_your_app_s_life_cycle/preparing_your_app_to_run_in_the_background?language=objc

EDIT:  If iOS Apps couldn't run in the backround, notifications from apps wouldn't be possible.....For example, Slack.  I get notifications while the app is active and backgrounded.  If I manually terminate the app, I no longer receive alerts for new messages...

AIR.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 15, 2019, 04:20:12 PM
Birth of BASIC = birth of TSS Time Sharing System (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYPNjSoDrqw)

I've been asked why I support Script BASIC.  Simple answer.

Business BASIC was my beginning with the language. A BASIC and OS with 5MB removable disk packs. Supporting 12 users in 64K of system memory. (OS, BASIC and user program space)  BASIC 4 and REXON.

Script BASIC can still run 95% of original Dartmouth BASIC code unmodified.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 15, 2019, 05:10:47 PM
Quote from: Mike@RetroB
LOL, I know not of any MS Windows build or distro that I would ever need to make work. I've enjoyed them all OOTB without stirring a finger.

Go figure now why every Windozer tends to call Linux not a real OS, really. ;D

While they post on their Android Linux or Apple Unix phones to a website running the same.

Windows is a presentation piece and shouldn't be viewed as a real operating system that does serious work on an enterprise level.


Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 15, 2019, 07:06:09 PM
OS "Wars" are pointless.

I run macOS, Linux, AND Windows on my Mac laptop in a triple boot.  Each has their uses.  Each has their own unique idiosyncrasies.  Each requires thinking about how you do things since they are different.

So, the OS isn't the issue, the USER who bashes one and praises another is the issue.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 16, 2019, 01:16:34 PM
Quote from: John on January 15, 2019, 05:10:47 PM
While they post on their Android Linux or Apple Unix phones to a website running the same.

Well, they must have something to do some sanitation for them after all, mustn't they? ;D

( Take it easy man, I'm just trolling. :) )
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 16, 2019, 07:02:44 PM
Quote
I'm just trolling.

We sure could use you coding instead. ;D
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 23, 2019, 09:25:47 PM
Here is Script BASIC running on my new laptop.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 23, 2019, 10:21:45 PM
Congrats! :)

Given we're aware of how SB would look on a Windows desktop, now waiting for a show-off of your new laptop proper... ;D

Is it a dual boot into native W10 or a W10 VM emulation?
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 23, 2019, 10:27:25 PM
The full 512 GB of SSD is Windows 10. This is not a Linux laptop at this point.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 24, 2019, 09:54:21 AM
Quote from: John on January 23, 2019, 10:27:25 PM
This is not a Linux laptop at this point.

Why, why wouldn't they preinstall Linux on their laptops? ;D
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 24, 2019, 09:58:12 AM
I bought this laptop as a Quickbooks Enterprise demo laptop. What I had was too slow.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 24, 2019, 10:38:25 AM
I think you could've bought (or built) yourself a decent desktop that would be 3 times more powerful, for approx. half the money you paid for that gimmick.

Just saying.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 24, 2019, 10:48:08 AM
It has the latest Intel processor, 16GB of fast memory and a 512 GB SSD drive. For me it's the ideal QBE machine. I'm happy and I feel I made the right choice with the Lenovo. I would never buy / build a desktop PC ever again. The keyword here is Demo Machine.

The daily newspaper is thicker and weighs more than my laptop.


New Laptop (https://www.costco.com/Lenovo-Flex-5-Series-2-in-1-Touchscreen-Laptop---Intel-Core-i7---GeForce-MX130---1080p---Active-Stylus.product.100402546.html)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 24, 2019, 12:00:14 PM
If you still read thick and heavy daily newspapers, why would you be so wary of time proven and rock solid desktop technologies?

And oh, but... :
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on January 24, 2019, 12:01:41 PM
Link works for me...
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on January 24, 2019, 12:16:36 PM
That's because you're an US resident, Armando. I tried it via my US VPN and it worked for me too this time. (it's a free market, they said... ;D)

Well, you've got a real bargain there, John. You can even play some simpler 3D games now, or try out our ObjReader (http://www.objreader.com/) in flesh. :)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on January 24, 2019, 12:58:51 PM
Quote
or try out our ObjReader in flesh. 

Busted! The real reason I bought it. :)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on February 05, 2019, 07:31:40 PM
Best Free Linux Home Computer Emulators (https://www.linuxlinks.com/best-free-linux-home-computer-emulators/)

Quote
This article focuses on software which emulates home computers, a class of personal computer which reached the market in the late 1970s, and became immensely popular in the following decade, selling many millions of units. Leading home computer companies included Commodore, Sinclair, Atari, Apple, Acorn, Tandy Radio Shack, and Amstrad.

Looks like Paul didn't make the list.  :-\

Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on February 05, 2019, 11:23:43 PM
If (Paul = ZXDunny) Then it should be noted the article covers complete computer emulators rather than the BASIC dialects they used to host. It is my understanding that SpecBAS in its current form is arguably a superset of the then usable dialects that cannot be run as-is in any of those emulators.

IIRC Paul used to be a co-author of one of ZX Spectrum emulators but the development stopped over a decade ago.

Please correct me if I am wrong.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on February 06, 2019, 11:17:20 AM
You're right and I didn't fully understand the extent of the term Home Computer.

 
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on March 02, 2019, 11:53:30 AM
Quote from: Tomaaz@RetroB
You can still download 32-bit versions of Debian, Buntus (Lubuntu, Xubuntu), Mint, Fedora, Slackware. I agree that support for 32-bit is going to disappear eventually, but it hasn't happened yet. I know - I should have replied several months ago, but better late than never.

The only thing that was delaying the demise of 32 bit on Linux was ARM. Most ARM processors are multi-core and 64 bit now. SysWoW64 is the only 32 bit environment that is going to be around for a while.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Mike Lobanovsky on April 14, 2019, 08:30:07 AM
Yet another skeleton in the closet (https://forum.powerbasic.com/forum/user-to-user-discussions/powerbasic-for-windows/780369-perfect-sync-is-winding-down) at PB Inc. How many more of them are we to see in the future yet?

(Took a screenshot too for my files just in case anybody doesn't like it on the PB forum, and the thread disappears as many more of them did in the past...)
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on April 14, 2019, 09:09:41 AM
I have never met anyone more greedy and full of himself than Zale. I don't miss him one bit.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: AIR on April 14, 2019, 09:12:35 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm not sympathetic to Pearson's plight.

He made a choice to not pursue payment he was due by all means available to him, so now he has to live with that choice.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on April 26, 2019, 07:42:37 PM
Quote from: Tomaaz@RetroRIP
It's time to state the obvious - this place is DEAD.  If anyone knows ACTIVE and friendly forums dedicated to hobby programmers, please post the links here. Thanx! Hope to see you there.

Buy yourself a Raspberry Pi and join their forum. They are a 1/4 million strong.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on April 28, 2019, 09:40:26 PM
Quote from: Heater@RPi
Yes. Problem is we are trying to describe the infinite detail of the real number line in the finite space of the computer.

But wait, that cannot be. Every schoolboy knows that:

0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 =

3/10 + 3/10 + 3/10 =

(3 + 3 + 3) / 10 =

9 / 10 =

0.9

Every schoolboy has a finite sized brain so this computation is not impossible to do accurately.

No, fact is, computers cannot do arithmetic.

Schoolboy Mode:  (On)
Code: ScriptBasic
  1. PRINT FORMAT("%0.1f",0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3),"\n"
  2.  
  3. PRINT FORMAT("%0.1f",3/10 + 3/10 + 3/10), "\n"
  4.  
  5. PRINT FORMAT("%0.1f",(3 + 3 + 3) / 10),"\n"
  6.  
  7. PRINT FORMAT("%0.1f",9 / 10), "\n"
  8.  

jrs@jrs-laptop:~/sb/examples/test$ scriba dotnet.sb
0.9
0.9
0.9
0.9
jrs@jrs-laptop:~/sb/examples/test$
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on December 09, 2019, 08:52:57 AM
Quote
Lets face it: BASIC is dead.

BASIC Is like programming training wheels that demystifies the fear of coding.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: John on December 16, 2019, 08:27:30 AM
Quote
Lets face it: BASIC is dead.

If BASIC were dead all other languages would have no foundational structure.
Title: Re: BASIC
Post by: Transdiv on November 01, 2022, 06:14:29 AM
WoW, they are selling BP.org domain name for US$79,500  :o